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Pro Sports => Baseball => Topic started by: KidRaven on November 15, 2019, 06:03:34 PM

Title: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on November 15, 2019, 06:03:34 PM
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28087732/sources-pirates-hire-ben-cherington-new-gm

Cherington is the new General Manager!
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on November 16, 2019, 01:25:42 PM
Stark was fired in an addition by subtraction move.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 16, 2019, 04:08:07 PM
I like Cherrington. He drafted the core of that Red Sox team that is still there. He ran into trouble with high priced free agents but we know that wonít be an opportunity he is given here.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on November 17, 2019, 09:35:06 AM
In some sad news, Vera Clemente, widow of Roberto, passed away.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 17, 2019, 12:22:54 PM
To add on Cherrington, I think he is a little more old school than the other candidates so Pirates fans should like that. The assistants from Houston and Milwaukee were just numbers geeks and I do not think the Pirates fanbase would take to that. At all.

The Pirates fan base wants young talented players drafted on ability. They want the Pirates to sign players who theyíve heard of to big money short term contracts. And the most important thing is the fans donít want to be talked down to. I hope Vherrington realizes this. We have put up with a line of bull for years. Fans arenít trusting anything anybody says until results are here.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on November 17, 2019, 03:35:10 PM
I always felt Huntington was focused on analytics to the exclusion of everything else. I think to be effective, management has to have room for every type of evaluation tool from old school eyes to advanced analytics in their decision-making process. If this is how Cherrington operates, I believe the Pirates will be the better for it.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 17, 2019, 08:55:07 PM
Huntington to me wasnít too attached to analytics. He was too attached to what he used 10 years ago. Simply put his pitch to contact theory with shifts worked for a period of time until other teams adjusted and said swing the bat like a golf club and hit it over the shift. So pitching for contact turned into pitching to guys trying to swing for the fences. Contact is what they certainly got. His stubbornness is what did him in.

I think analytics are most important thing to look at but you have to be flexible and admit when youíve been solved. He had no ability to admit fault. Even saying this 93 loss season would happen one in a thousand times based on the simulations the front office runs. Well maybe your simulations are faulty too and the team just stinks. I donít think he could take any sort of responsibility.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on November 25, 2019, 06:09:31 AM
PG reports TB and Minn bench coaches are under consideration for Pirates' mgr opening.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 25, 2019, 06:16:17 PM
Reading where Rick Porcello May be interested in signing with the Pirates. Think that would be a good veteran to give thePirates respectable innings. Something they got away from the past few seasons.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on November 27, 2019, 01:46:02 PM
Pirates hire Derek Shelton as their new manager.  He was the Twins' bench coach

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28176445/pirates-hire-twins-bench-coach-derek-shelton-manager
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on November 27, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
Pirates hiring all these guys with American League experience and first time manager (means cheap) to revive the Pirates.  Good luck there, guys. :)
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 27, 2019, 07:44:35 PM
Coach not to be a jerk but could you tell us how you would run the Pirates? I just feel like youíre critical of literally everything they do.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on November 27, 2019, 09:33:05 PM
Coach not to be a jerk but could you tell us how you would run the Pirates? I just feel like youíre critical of literally everything they do.
How can you not be critical?  What am I missing? Why bother with 'if I ran the Pirates' cause it ain't gonna happen.  All they did was rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic..so far.   Pittsburgh is dying for a winner in baseball.. even Ray Charles could see that after how the town went crazy  a few years back when they got to the play offs. Happy Thanksgiving :)
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 27, 2019, 10:28:45 PM
Just donít know why people who think there is no hope with Nutting even Ponder baseball in Pittsburgh. If I thought something was that depressing I wouldnít waste one thought on it.

Hope you and everybody else has a happy thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on November 28, 2019, 11:25:01 AM
Well, train wrecks are not nice to see, but you just can't help but look. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on November 28, 2019, 02:33:43 PM
I think fans will be pleasantly surprised with a GM who develops top end talent. Things arenít hopeless when you develop real impact talent. Neil Huntington never did.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on December 02, 2019, 10:16:08 PM
Cherrington makes his first meaningful decision today be non tendering Eliís Diaz.

According to fangraphs 48 catchers had 200 or more plate appearances in 2019. The rankings are as follows.

Offense
Stallings 24/48
Diaz 43/48

Defense
Stallings 11/48
Diaz 47/48

Overall
Stallings 21/48
Diaz 47/48

WAR
Stallings 1.3
Diaz -1.5

Looks like a pretty straightforward decision based on advanced statistics that all teams are using.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on December 03, 2019, 09:29:06 PM
Cherrington pulled a coup today by hiring his draft guru away from Toronto. Maybe he can help the Pirates acquire meaningful impact talent through the draft. Thatís where theyíve truly failed this decade. Toronto has a top farm system currently due to his work the past 3 drafts.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on December 03, 2019, 10:18:45 PM
Cherrington pulled a coup today by hiring his draft guru away from Toronto. Maybe he can help the Pirates acquire meaningful impact talent through the draft. Thatís where theyíve truly failed this decade. Toronto has a top farm system currently due to his work the past 3 drafts.


Young guy also. Pretty well established at only 31 years old
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on December 04, 2019, 08:01:41 AM
The new assistant general manager Steve Sanders spent 3 years in Toronto as the top amateur scout. The Blue Jays farm system improved from 24th to 6th in the baseball America ratings due to his three drafts.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Falcons01 on December 06, 2019, 07:58:33 PM
Just some random thoughts:

I think everyone agrees that things are going to be an uphill climb as long as Nutting is around but we are stuck with him so....

I kind of favored Matt Arnold from Milwaukee to be the GM but that doesnt mean in any way I am not pleased with the hire of Cherington.  He missed on some high priced free agents but as noted, he has drafted and developed well.

I love his pick of Sanders as his top assistant.  He's young and accomplished already and has been with Cherington for quite a while. Ive read he is an up and comer and future GM.  Those same things have been said of Kevan Graves so it is nice to see that he was retained.

Kyle Stark fired...good riddance.

I really really really liked everything about Derek Shelton.  I cant wait to see that staff he puts together.  Eckstein staying is huge.  He may even get promoted to bench coach.  If he wants a vet to help him along, maybe John Farrell?  He could even be the pitching coach.  Joel Hanrahan has been a great coach in the minors and it would be a shame if he wasnt promoted to at least bullpen coach.

The move for Diaz was puzzling.  I understand he really had an awful year last year but two years ago he was the "future."  That was under the old staff so I get it.  I just dont like that you left yourself with only Stallings.  We must sign or trade for someone cause we cant go into next year with Christian Kelley or Arden Pabst as other backup.

Marte is on the market.  As I talked with Kidraven a lot, I was strongly against moving him.  He however has expressed that he doesnt really want to be here so maybe it is best to move on if you can get a nice haul. The CF FA market is super weak and he has two years of control.  Someone should overpay for him.  Huntington did pull a couple nice trades off but overall he failed.  I do have more faith in Cherington so we will see.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on December 08, 2019, 05:56:37 PM
Don Kelly, Pittsburgh area native, brother-in-law of Neil Walker and protege' of Jim Leyland, hired by Shelton as bench coach. Eckstein retained as hitting coach, Cora as 3rd base coach and the assistant pitching coach also kept on.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: emm8 on December 08, 2019, 07:58:40 PM

Don Kelly, Pittsburgh area native, brother-in-law of Neil Walker and protege' of Jim Leyland, hired by Shelton as bench coach.


That probably came up in the phone call from Leyland to Shelton as well, but didn't get mentioned in the newspaper article in the Trib about the call.   :o   ;)
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on December 11, 2019, 12:48:04 AM
Cole is now a New York Yankee: 9 years for 326 million.  That is 36 million per year.  New record deal in MLB.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on December 11, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
Good for Cole (and Boras gets a nice chunk of change, too), but do the Yankees really think Cole's going to be effective until he's 39?
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on December 11, 2019, 12:27:49 PM
Good for Cole (and Boras gets a nice chunk of change, too), but do the Yankees really think Cole's going to be effective until he's 39?

Agreed completely.  Good for him.

I saw someone do the quick math however.

In 2017 for Pittsburgh he made approximately $163/pitch (base salary only, not including bonuses). In 2020 if he pitches all 36 projected starts and throws 100 pitches/game that would be $10000/pitch. Just no way that a team like the Pirates can compete with that.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on December 11, 2019, 02:34:05 PM
Just another reason why I don't give any time or money in any way to these 'businesses'. No one is worth that kind of meny, unless they find a cure for Cancer.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on December 11, 2019, 02:37:54 PM
Cole is now a New York Yankee: 9 years for 326 million.  That is 36 million per year.  New record deal in MLB.

And this was right after the Nationals gave Strasburg a record deal
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on December 12, 2019, 12:18:02 AM
Rendon got a similar deal with LA Angels, 7 yrs, 300M+. His and Cole's contracts work out to aroun 4k/hr. To put that in perspective, they make more during 8 hrs of shut eye than someone working full time making $14/hr does in a year.

Gene Collier was on with Pompeani on the NSC. They did some quick calculations on Boras' cut of 800+M he got for just 3 clients at 40+M (5% agent fee).
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on December 12, 2019, 10:52:04 AM
Don Kelly, Pittsburgh area native, brother-in-law of Neil Walker and protege' of Jim Leyland, hired by Shelton as bench coach. Eckstein retained as hitting coach, Cora as 3rd base coach and the assistant pitching coach also kept on.
who isn't related to Neil Walker?  :)
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on December 12, 2019, 11:54:55 PM
Being reported that the Pirates are actively trying to trade Marte. Padres and Mets are showing most interest
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on December 13, 2019, 04:00:10 AM
PG reports other teams showing interest in Frazier and Musgrove. On trade with Toronto would bring back Reese McGuire. I don't know, I can sorta smell a desperation trade coming for a catcher.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on December 13, 2019, 06:30:03 AM
Iíd like Austin Hedges from the Padres as part of that trade for Marte.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on December 21, 2019, 08:17:28 AM
Pirates hire Tarik Brock as 1B coach. He has spent the past three seasons as the Dodgers minor league baserunning coordinator. Hope heís ready for the Polanco project.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Falcons01 on December 21, 2019, 10:03:16 AM
Pirates hire Tarik Brock as 1B coach. He has spent the past three seasons as the Dodgers minor league baserunning coordinator. Hope heís ready for the Polanco project.
Quote of the off-season already hahaha

anywho, I am a little concern with the lack of experience on the coaching staff but honestly what do I know?  The Pitching coach has some nice up and coming credentials.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 10, 2020, 10:49:08 AM
Pirates sign a .245 batting av. free agent!  Not far from the Mendoza Line.  All field and no hit outfielder..how many games will he win/save with that glove?
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 10, 2020, 01:54:12 PM
Pirates settle 5 of 8 arbitration cases including Josh Bell (4.8M) and Trevor Williams. Kela, Musgrove and Frazier appear headed to arbitration. A little surprising about Bell since Boras is his agent.

Link: https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2020/01/10/pirates-arbitration-updates-2020-jameson-taillon-josh-bell/stories/202001100118

In other news, the Pirates continue to do their usual off-season dumpster diving.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 10, 2020, 04:02:56 PM
It is early yet but this offseason would be a disaster if this was March 10. They either need to essentially double payroll by signing free agents or they need to trade off Marte, Bell, Kela and Musgrove. Anything in the middle is dumb.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on January 13, 2020, 02:24:50 PM
Astros got hammered for their cheating scandal.  Their GM and manager suspended for a year.  The team fined 5 million dollars and they lose first and second round picks in the 2020 and 2021 MLB Draft. 

It seems Red Sox manager Cora will be getting punished in the coming days as well as he was seen as the ring leader when he was in Houston. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Bob.Gregg.WJPA.Radio on January 13, 2020, 04:06:07 PM
Astros ownership just fired GM & manager.

BoSox HAVE to fire Cora....

MLB should provide a power point of today's events to Roger Goodell on how you handle CHEATING in your game.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 13, 2020, 04:37:13 PM
This is great to see.

I also suspect Morton, Verlander, Cole and other pitchers were doing something to the baseball to increase spin rate and get more strikeouts.

This is the same GM who hacked into his former employer St. Louis database to get access to scouting reports. He should have been fired then.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on January 13, 2020, 05:27:47 PM
I guess we will find out when Cole starts pitching for a different team this season and he falls off a cliff or at least regresses than all fingers will point to him cheating somehow or someway in the eyes of a lot of the fans
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on January 14, 2020, 04:47:36 PM
Astros ownership just fired GM & manager.

BoSox HAVE to fire Cora....

MLB should provide a power point of today's events to Roger Goodell on how you handle CHEATING in your game.

Hit the nail on the head on all points.

And yes this GM is a known cheater (not unlike Belichick).
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 14, 2020, 06:52:10 PM
Kind of hard to believe no one picked up on them banging on a trash can before every pitch. I saw a clip of some pitcher..calling out his catcher after looking toward the Houston Dugout. "hey, everytime I throw a curve some guy hits that trash can twice."  Don't you just love millionaire athletes?
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on January 14, 2020, 08:20:12 PM
Red Sox part ways with their manager Cora, who was apparently the ring leader of the whole thing in Houston.

This also apparently goes beyond banging as trash can as they were using technology to steal the signs.  Itís weird as stealing signs isnít a crime if you do it the way itís been done for 140 years: figure it out with your own eyes.  Using computers and apple watches is obviously above and beyond. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Bob.Gregg.WJPA.Radio on January 16, 2020, 01:24:55 PM
And what about Carlos Beltran?
He gotta go too.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 16, 2020, 03:28:34 PM
Luhnow needs a lifetime ban. I would like to see somebody petition MLB to blacklist him permanently.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on January 16, 2020, 08:55:26 PM
Beltran is gone from the Mets.

Now reports that Altuve and Bergman were wearing devices that signaled to them what pitch was coming.  Apparently itís Why Altuve didnít want his jersey ripped off when he hit the walk off against the Yankees in the playoffs.

This could get interesting.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 16, 2020, 10:07:18 PM
If thatís true we are talking lifetime bans for all these guys. Itís not interesting. Itís ridiculous. If itís true get rid of them. And Astros owner still has to pay their salary to MLB charity programs.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 16, 2020, 10:21:45 PM
this makes the Black Sox look like pikers. Say it ain't so, Joe.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 17, 2020, 10:47:37 PM
Not only should all involved be banned, but Houston should be banned from participating in any playoffs for some period of time.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 18, 2020, 12:13:07 PM
Not only should all involved be banned, but Houston should be banned from participating in any playoffs for some period of time.
I think if Houston has/will clean house then the city of Houston should not be punished due to loss of money, etc from anything a revamped team might produce.  I think so type of probation until the owner can show he has 'fixed' the problem that might involve the entire replacement of every player or workers around that probably had knowledge of what was going on. I have no qualms about banning those major figures involved from baseball..but don't punish the town.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Nicky on January 21, 2020, 11:31:07 PM
Jeter falls one vote short of unanimous election to the HOF.  One vote. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on January 22, 2020, 08:52:19 AM
Jeter falls one vote short of unanimous election to the HOF.  One vote.

I like him but I'm mildly shocked that he would have been THAT close to unanimous. Stats wise it is possible to argue that Jeter was a bit overrated. I would disagree with that if pressed to argue it (his intangibles outweigh any statistical shortcomings IMO) but there is a fair argument that baseball fans (but apparently not many writers) would at least be able to intelligently argue.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on January 27, 2020, 03:33:41 PM
Marte is traded to Arizona for 2 prospects: a RH pitcher picked in last year's draft at #33 and a 19 year old SS from the Dominican Republic. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 27, 2020, 03:43:22 PM
Marte is traded to Arizona for 2 prospects: a RH pitcher picked in last year's draft at #33 and a 19 year old SS from the Dominican Republic.
Basically sounds like for an old catcher's mitt and bag of batting practice balls.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Bob.Gregg.WJPA.Radio on January 27, 2020, 04:12:28 PM
PIRATES AND DIAMONDBACKS MAKE THREE-PLAYER TRADE
The Pittsburgh Pirates today acquired infielder Liover Peguero and right-handed pitcher Brennan Malone from the Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for outfielder Starling Marte and cash considerations. The Pirates will also receive an additional capacity in its 2019-2020 International Signing Bonus Pool, allowing them to spend an additional $250,000 in this yearís International Signing Period. The announcement was made by Pirates General Manager Ben Cherington.

The 19-year-old Peguero entered today ranked as Arizonaís fifth-best prospect according to FanGraphs (No. 7 by Baseball America) in a deep Diamondbacks minor league system. During his second professional season in 2019, the right-handed hitting Peguero hit a combined .326 (74-for-227) with 11 doubles, five triples, five home runs, 38 RBI and an .866 OPS in 60 games with Hillsboro and Missoula. He was also named a 2019 Pioneer League mid- and post-season All-Star after hitting .364 with seven doubles, three triples, five home runs, 27 RBI and a .970 OPS in 38 games with Missoula.

The 19-year-old Malone, regarded as one of the top prep arms in the 2019 Draft, was the 33rd overall selection out of IMG Academy in Bradenton, FL, where he went 11-0 with a 0.27 ERA (51.0ip/2er), a .132 batting average against and 69 strikeouts in 11 starts as a senior in 2019. He entered today ranked as Arizonaís 10th-best prospect according to FanGraphs (No. 9 by Baseball America).

During his first pro season in 2019, Malone went a combined 1-2 with a 4.50 ERA (8.0ip/4er) in seven games (three starts) between the Arizona League Diamondbacks and the short-season Hillsboro Hops of the Northwest League.

ďWeíre excited about adding two young players of this caliber and the opportunity weíll have to help them continue to grow.Ē said Cherington. ďIn addition, we now have a greater ability to acquire impact type talent in this yearís international free agent market.

ďWe have a foundation of talent in Pittsburgh and in our system that we feel will be a key part of our success. We also know that we need more of it if we are going to realistically be able to compete deep into September and October,Ē added Cherington.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 27, 2020, 05:12:11 PM
Neither player will be seen in Pittsburgh for 5-6 years given the way the Pirates require young players to play at each and every level in their system. It says how bereft the minors are that the pitcher automatically rose to the top of their prospect pool.

Now if the Pirates are smart, they'll play Reynolds in CF and mover Frazier to LF opening space to move Newman to 2nd and install Tucker at SS. Despite his gold glove nomination, Frazier is not a good 2B, but he's shown the ability to play a decent OF.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 27, 2020, 05:44:39 PM
I for one will NOT miss Marte no matter what happens. He was dumb and lazy. Didnít care at all about winning. Good riddance.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on January 27, 2020, 05:51:32 PM
I wonder if they will be looking to move Josh Bell?
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 27, 2020, 06:34:34 PM
Hard to say. Moving Marte could be seen as a start of a major rebuild or it could be getting rid of a low character low effort guy. Guess we wonít know until August 1 most likely.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on January 27, 2020, 09:27:40 PM
I wonder if they will be looking to move Josh Bell?
I hope not.  Getting rid of Marte is addition by subtraction.  I always felt he was a bad influence on Polanco, who would see he lack of effort and how the management let him get away with it. Bell may see this as clearing some vet player out of his way to be a leader (assuming he has it in him)
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Crabber on January 27, 2020, 10:32:00 PM
I really  think Bell has it him. His dad is forever helping him and I think has instilled habits in him.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on January 28, 2020, 05:40:10 PM
I don't want to part with Bell, but unless their plan is a quick rebuild, it honestly would make more sense to trade him if they can recoup good value than to keep him.

If you want both (a long rebuild AND Bell being part of it) Freddie Freeman would be the best doppelganger. Atlanta believed in him as their centerpiece and kept him it paid off in the end.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 28, 2020, 06:02:19 PM
Scott Boras wasnít his agent though.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 28, 2020, 11:22:10 PM
According to Brink's story in the PG, Cherington is just waiting for the right deal to move Bell. He's apparently hoping for another 2 low minors teenage prospect haul.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on January 28, 2020, 11:45:03 PM
Scott Boras wasnít his agent though.

That and their rebuild took about the right amount of time.

Look, I'm not suggesting that they do either (a total teardown or more of a reload/retool)...I'm just hoping that whatever plan they go with they stick to it. Trading Marte to me is hardly a "firesale" move for the reasons mentioned.  It is a good move for a team not likely to contend in 2020.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 29, 2020, 06:30:49 AM
According to Brink's story in the PG, Cherington is just waiting for the right deal to move Bell. He's apparently hoping for another 2 low minors teenage prospect haul.

I read that essentially he is so unimpressed with Huntingtonís past few draft classes that he is trying to acquire players that have been recently drafted or are of draft age that his organization in Toronto coveted. Almost like a redo of the 2018-2019 drafts for the Pirates organization.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 29, 2020, 07:54:23 AM
Point is, if you are trying to "restock" the minors, a GM better get more than a couple of prospects who are nowhere close to major league ready - if they ever are - for one your best players. You better get prospects who are lot closer to helping in a year or so rather than 19 yr olds who won't, given the way the Pirates don't allow players to skip levels, help for 4-5 years.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: hs on January 29, 2020, 03:55:12 PM
Point is, if you are trying to "restock" the minors, a GM better get more than a couple of prospects who are nowhere close to major league ready - if they ever are - for one your best players. You better get prospects who are lot closer to helping in a year or so rather than 19 yr olds who won't, given the way the Pirates don't allow players to skip levels, help for 4-5 years.


Couldnít agree more with this
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 30, 2020, 08:32:46 AM
Has anybody ever considered that Marte stinks and didnít have much value? Iíd bet 25 teams had no interest from the get go based on his poor character, failed drug test and inability to be coached.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 30, 2020, 11:29:58 AM
23 HRs, 82 RBIs and 25 SB and 97 runs scored. The year before he had 20 HRs and 72 RBIs and 33 SB. He's also a good OF with an above average arm. Not many ran on him when he was patrolling LF. But, that stinks?

Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 30, 2020, 12:58:29 PM
So youíre saying Cherrington didnít get enough and itís abad trade.

Do we just assume EVERY move the Pirates makes is wrong until they prove otherwise now? Seems like thatís the easy thing to do.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on January 30, 2020, 02:29:55 PM
No one will know if it's a good trade or bad trade until when or if these prospects make it to the majors and if/when they become productive regulars. That's years down the road.

You seem to think it was a good trade based primarily on your perception that Marte is "lazy" or some kind of slacker.

I am saying if Cherington decides to trade Bell, then he better get a return that's more than a couple 19 yr olds prospects toiling away in the low minors. If he decides on a trade deadline flip of a player having a great season, he needs to get players who are major league ready or close to it. He can restock the minors by drafting well, and more importantly, signing more than just 25 or so of the draftees.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on January 30, 2020, 03:18:14 PM
Any trade involving Marte is a good trade.

Iíd rather watch this team lose 100 without him than 90 with him. Heís a disgrace to anybody who thinks.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on February 01, 2020, 08:04:39 AM
That is like cutting off your nose to spite your face, but when the Pirates lose 90-100, you'll have plenty of good seats to chose from when you go to games.

Here are the latest scrap heap signings: JT Riddle https://triblive.com/sports/pirates-sign-inf-of-jt-riddle-as-possible-centerfield-platoon-candidate/

P/C/OF: https://triblive.com/sports/pirates-sign-lhp-robbie-erlin-c-andrew-susac-of-charlie-tilson-to-minor-league-deals/

Derek Holland: https://triblive.com/sports/pirates-sign-veteran-lhp-derek-holland-to-minor-league-contract/
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 01, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
I am saying if Cherington decides to trade Bell, then he better get a return that's more than a couple 19 yr olds prospects toiling away in the low minors. If he decides on a trade deadline flip of a player having a great season, he needs to get players who are major league ready or close to it.

The Gerrit Cole trade is kind of exhibit A in terms of wanting MLB ready talent (it helped them for a year or two and has potential to pay off a bit but NEVER will return the value of Cole).  I actually like the return in the Marte trade better all things considered.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 01, 2020, 10:37:36 AM
Funny thing about the Cole trade is if Cole pitches in Houston like he had for the Pirates, the Pirates win that trade.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 01, 2020, 10:39:43 AM
I think we are at a point where the vitriol and disdain for Nutting from the fans basically makes any move they make a bad move. Nothing short of doubling payroll would suffice. Even if itís on guys who wouldnít help them reach the playoffs this season.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on February 01, 2020, 11:49:57 AM
Just wondering.  With so many empty seats in various sections...do they let you just move on down closer if you had alike a reserved seat higher up?  It is same price for those empty seats. You see on tv an entire empty section with a couple people sitting way on up.  Do they like that or would some deputy dog usher chase them if they moved down to like Row A? Way back in the day when I did go to games, if there were some empty seats down close, I just slipped the usher a buck and he let me move on in.  Saw a lot of games in the box seats that way.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on February 01, 2020, 11:57:16 AM
I'd guess if you move after the 4th inning, no one will bother you. For the high up seats, you can probably move down or up in the section as far as you want.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 01, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
I think we are at a point where the vitriol and disdain for Nutting from the fans basically makes any move they make a bad move. Nothing short of doubling payroll would suffice. Even if itís on guys who wouldnít help them reach the playoffs this season.

Agreed completely. It would be fair to assess the Marte trade as a good baseball trade or at the very least a typical trade for a rebuilder,  and neverminding that the Pirates actually SENT cash in this deal. I'm not sure if fans just don't understand the concept of rebuilding (the Pens have not had to do this since the mid-'00s and the Steelers not since the late 80s if not arguably late 60s). Fans just don't want to hear it.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 01, 2020, 12:35:37 PM
Depends on the ballpark and the ushers. Here in Cleveland at Progressive Field they do police it aggressively for instance. And that's even in years where attendance isn't great. Friends and I tried moving down and the usher caught us...I actually not even in jest thanked him for doing his job haha.

From my experience back in the Three Rivers days the ushers were more lenient.  I remember McClatchy era when they did $5 General Admission seats and Kid's GA seats were $1. My dad's company seats were box 3B line if you got in GA and slipped the usher a few $$$ it was cool to go over to the box seats. At PNC admittedly those seats even in the worst of years are pretty full (close to the field...my dad's company seats at 7 rows behind Pirates dugout).
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 01, 2020, 12:47:02 PM
I think we are at a point where the vitriol and disdain for Nutting from the fans basically makes any move they make a bad move. Nothing short of doubling payroll would suffice. Even if itís on guys who wouldnít help them reach the playoffs this season.

Agreed completely. It would be fair to assess the Marte trade as a good baseball trade or at the very least a typical trade for a rebuilder,  and neverminding that the Pirates actually SENT cash in this deal. I'm not sure if fans just don't understand the concept of rebuilding (the Pens have not had to do this since the mid-'00s and the Steelers not since the late 80s if not arguably late 60s). Fans just don't want to hear it.

From what I hear they donít understand the necessity of a rebuild. The thought process is had they kept payroll at say $125mil consistently then the team would win enough to never have to go through this process.

Nobody ever says what they think payroll should be. Should it be too 5 in mlb? Top 15? Just higher than Milwaukee or Cincinnati? Is St. Louis the comp? All I know is fans yearn to see them spend money because in their mind that constitutes effort.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 01, 2020, 02:02:02 PM
Market size wise Pittsburgh is ahead of Milwaukee and Cincinnati so those are fair benchmarks. With that said Cincinnati kind of frivously spent money last year and finished  a whopping 6 games ahead of the Pirates.  I feel like BT and myself were using them as Exhibit A for useless spending before the season and both of us predicted them to be on or near the bottom in the division.

I will say about Cincinnati in particular though while the city of Cincinnati is smaller than Pittsburgh the Reds media market includes Columbus, Louisville,  Lexington, Dayton, parts of West Virginia, and into Indiana including Indianapolis if I'm not mistaken. Not only that in Cincinnati Reds baseball is definitely their sport of choice (they still almost always open at home and have the Opening Day Parade etc). I would liken them more to Green Bay or Buffalo in the NFL in that regard.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on February 01, 2020, 05:03:22 PM
The Steelers and Penguins do rebuilds, but the big difference between them and the Pirates is that the Steelers and Penguins identify their core players and give them contacts consistent with their value then identify role players who are interchangeable in the short and medium term to surround them.

For example, there are 6 Fs, 4 D, and 2G on the current roster that were also on the 2016-17 Penguin team.

The Pirates philosophy is to get or develop good players and maybe buy out a couple of arbitration years, then trade them. Then the complimentary players are forced into roles for which they are unsuited. You can see how quickly this can devolve into a team mostly devoid of talent and then trying to trade what few assets it has to get itself out of the hole. Maybe Cherington is a better talent evaluator than Huntington and might possibly be able to make the Pirates' philosophy work, but that won't be known for a few years.

As for payroll, if the Pirates operated under the same theory as the Steelers and Pens, then payroll should be as large as it needs to be to keep the best, core players together and to surround them with enough complimentary players to win as many games as possible.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 01, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
So what would your current roster be if you kept players you identified as key players? This is where I blame Huntington and not Nutting. Cole is unavailable for many reasons, none are Nuttingís fault. Boras was never going to let him sign one of those contracts here. Pedro Alvarez is a guy youíd have wanted to give a large long term deal to. Heís out of baseball. Neil Walker is on a minor league deal. McCutchen is coming off an injury and hadnít been his best since 2015 or so.

The Pirates did sign Marte, Harrison and Polanco to contracts like that. They werenít winning anything with them as a core. Taillon is often injured and they e developed no other pitchers but Morton.

If the Pirates has that strategy their payroll would be over $125mil currently and theyíd still bad.

Basically theyíve done such a poor job of drafting and developing that the strategy used by the Steelers and Penguins wouldnít work.

Thatís why they are where they are.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 01, 2020, 07:54:53 PM
In a perfect world Cole and Cutch would be those two "core players" to sign but like you said Cole wasn't going to stay pretty much no matter what. Keeping in mind how much the Yankees had to pay for him just imagine how much the Pirates would have had to overpay to keep him.

Cutch they did pay and cut ties with him at a perfect time (if not a year too late).

I suppose Marte would be next but at his age he would not be worth another contract so again unless the Pirates planned on competing for a World Series in 2020 moving him was absolutely the right move.

The funny thing with the aforementioned Walker is that I was actually worried that the Pirates would sign him to appease their fans because of the local connection. Them not signing him was a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 01, 2020, 10:04:04 PM
Their biggest issue with a guy like Walker or Cole was not just letting those guys go through arbitration and letting them walk. They seem completely unwilling to use that approach. It was what they did with Bonds and Bonilla.

But if they did that with Cutch they donít get Reynolds. So itís hard to say.

I just think they did such a horrible job of drafting and developing impact talent that no strategy would work. Huntington didnít do his job well enough. As I said before I donít think things are going to look so dire when they start getting legitimate young talent coming.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Falcons01 on February 02, 2020, 03:45:42 PM
I also am in the minority of thinking the return on Marte wasnt that bad.  It was disappointing to not get Varsho or other MLB ready players but they got two high impact top ten players.  They are high risk, high reward.  The key under the new regime is the development, not necessarily the drafting per say. Again it will take some time. 

We do not know much about how Cherington and crew run their systems.  Neil was notorious for leaving his players at each level for a set amount of time and it didnt matter if the player was ready to advance.  It had to fit his plan.  He treated players as equals not let talent dictate how a player should advance through the system.

Bottom line is we all know things are always going to be an uphill climb as long as Nutting owns this team.  Problem is, he isnt going anywhere.  That's the most frustrating thing.  You hate to support an awful owner but the love of baseball and passion of the game makes it hard to stay away.  It isn't the players fault and I wont take it out on them.  I will continue to watch as many games as possible. I have severely cut down how many games I attend each season, but I still love this team. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 02, 2020, 08:10:22 PM
The only way to win is to draft and develop high risk guys. Also by trading for them. Long term contracts arenít feasible. Free agents arenít feasible. So you have to try to compile a wave of young talent that has a short window. Cherington seems to know this.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on February 04, 2020, 11:06:37 PM
Big time trade in MLB as Red Sox send Betts and David Price and cash go the Dodgers for OF Alex Verdugo and RHP Brusdar Graterol.  Minnesota was also involved and get RHP Kenta Maeda.

In a separate deal the Dodgers send Petersen down the freeway to the Angels for 2B Luis Rengifo.

Seems Red Sox are tired of paying the luxury tax and this gets them under that.  Dodgers are all in to win the elusive World Series.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Falcons01 on February 09, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
Big time trade in MLB as Red Sox send Betts and David Price and cash go the Dodgers for OF Alex Verdugo and RHP Brusdar Graterol.  Minnesota was also involved and get RHP Kenta Maeda.

In a separate deal the Dodgers send Petersen down the freeway to the Angels for 2B Luis Rengifo.

Seems Red Sox are tired of paying the luxury tax and this gets them under that.  Dodgers are all in to win the elusive World Series.

Appears this has fallen apart.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 09, 2020, 05:07:03 PM
If i was Boston I would just ask Minnesota for a lesser healthy arm to get rid of the Price contract. They could potentially sign a different pitcher or make a big trade in season.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on February 09, 2020, 07:45:06 PM
Seems the trade is back on but without Minnesota.  Will just be a LA and Boston deal.  No details yet though. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 09, 2020, 07:55:12 PM
All Boston wanted was to dump the Price contract.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Bob.Gregg.WJPA.Radio on February 10, 2020, 12:04:02 PM
The Red Sox and Dodgers have reworked the deal sending Betts and Price to Los Angeles.

Red Sox get Alex Verdugo, prospects Jeter Downs and Connor Wong.
LA Dodgers get Betts and Price.

Minnesota is sending Brusdar Graterol to LA Dodgers for Kenta Maeda.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 10, 2020, 08:38:58 PM
I donít think Maeda is a good fit in Minnesota. Thatís a tough ballpark for flyball pitchers.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: coach99 on February 11, 2020, 11:19:01 AM
Anyone else feel that reading about off season baseball is more interesting than any other sport? Getting to learn the names of the players working to make the team and seeing how the vets are doing...and the trades and signing just make it different every  day.  In football after the draft nothing much happens until August and then the vets hardly do anything so hard to really get a handle on any rookies. It just seems that with the Steelers, names pop up of guys I did not even know were on the team. Losing the paper daily will impact this for me. Trying to have coffee and mess with the screen is not the same as having the paper to keep going over and save up.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 11, 2020, 04:37:33 PM
Baseball to me is interesting too because in other sports with a fixed salary cap and floor, all teams are just in varying stages of pretty much the same strategy. In baseball you have teams really having more unique plans on how to get ahead.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on February 12, 2020, 06:01:03 PM
Seems baseball is setting the 3 batter minimum for pitchers now this season. 
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on February 17, 2020, 12:17:52 AM
Don't know if one should laugh or cry. Cherrington seems hopelessly naive if he actually believes this. https://triblive.com/sports/pirates-gm-ben-cherington-money-to-build-winner-will-be-there/

One thing it does confirm for me is that the Pirates have a global baseball budget. While money can shift around within it, there is a hard ceiling of x dollars meaning the GM must always rob Peter to pay Paul.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on February 19, 2020, 05:47:42 PM
Pirates Pablo Reyes popped for PED use and is out 80 games.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: Tiger4Lyfe on February 21, 2020, 07:32:10 AM
lol, maybe he will hit .250 now
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: yannessa_is_god on February 21, 2020, 07:35:29 AM
lol, maybe he will hit .250 now

The Kevin Stallings of MLB lol.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: BALDWINTRACK on February 21, 2020, 10:11:07 PM
Jacob Stallings I actually think is going to have a nice year. He started showing some power late last season. Heís excellent defensively.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: bfgrad on February 23, 2020, 03:04:50 PM
He's also 31 years old.

Saw that Oneal Cruz kid and he is really, really tall. Looks all of the 6'6" he's reported to be. I don't think he can continue to play SS at that height, but I guess we'll see.

Polanco looks to be in great shape. I thought it was a good sign he was not releasing his left hand when he took a full swing like he started doing last year before he was shut down for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Pirates Off Season 2019-20
Post by: KidRaven on February 23, 2020, 05:14:23 PM
They were talking about Cruz on The Fan and seems he may end up in the OF at some point since he is 6í6Ē.